Some thoughts on 'substitutionary atonement'

[JonahParticipant]

The ‘second death’ (the lake of fire – commonly referred to as hell) is eternal (Rev 20:14) and is reserved not for sinners but for the devil and his angels, and unrepentant sinners. There is no redemption without the repentance implicit in true faith.  So Jesus suffering the eternal second death vicariously would have been pointless as there is no redemption from it.  He suffered the first death which is the consequence of sin. (And I believe His physical suffering and death – He also experienced the spiritual death of separation from God – was also representative of the justice sinners deserved under the law; but I wouldn’t want to be dogmatic about this last point).

It is commonly taught that Jesus suffered “the punishment of hell” for us, which is equated to the wrath of God.  I believe God’s wrath is against sin and Jesus bore the penalty thereof when he bore our sin, but the lake of fire represents the implacable wrath of His holiness against unrelenting rebellion which can never be propitiated.

If my understanding is correct, it has implications for evangelism in that the emphasis should be on the redemptive and salvific consequence of the atonement and not the consequence of rejecting salvation (since by definition unbelievers will reject such warnings anyway).

• This topic was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Jonah. Reason: Correct a mispelling in post title
• This topic was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Jonah. Reason: To correct another misspelling in post title
• This topic was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Jonah. Reason: To remove gobbledeegook that randomly appeared
• This topic was modified 6 years, 7 months ago by Jonah. Reason: Edit last sentence

[Robert Wurtz IIModerator]

I have a few verses in regards to emphasis in evangelism.

“Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”
(Luke 3:7–9 KJV)

Notice “trees” is in the plural and then singular (trees and then “every tree”). This is a familiar OT symbolism for people (Psalm 1:3, Isaiah 53:2, 61:3, et al). I’m reminded of “But if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned” (Hebrews 6:8 NKJV). This is clearly people as well (individuals as opposed to whole nations).

Paul emphasized the wrath of God in Romans 1 & 2 as well as his ordinary preaching. We don’t see this because we read the epistles that were addressed to the saints rather than unbelievers. However, when speaking to Agrippa, Paul explained his understanding of his commission. He stated:

“Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me” (Acts 26:19–21 KJV).

Notice three things: 1) Paul preached a “John the Baptist type” message of repentance everywhere he went. This is not emphasized today, but is rather ignored almost completely. If Paul’s testimony to Agrippa is to be believed, many will need to adjust their Pauline theology. 2) In the Lucian corpus (Luke, Acts, and possibly Hebrews), John the Baptist, or the basics of his message, is alluded to more than anywhere else. Luke was Paul’s right-hand man and was among the few faithful who attended his death. 3) The message of repentance is what infuriated the Jews and was the basis of their plots to kill him. This was the same with Stephen. When he uncovered their rebellion against God they gnashed on him and stoned him.

Sorry so long…

[JonahParticipant]

Hi Robert many thanks for your reply.  I’m afraid the the notification sat in my spam folder and I only just stumbled on it by chance.

I fully agree about the importance of preaching repentance.  What I am thinking is that the degree to which eternal damnation is taught when people are taught the gospel for evangelistic purposes should be in proportion to their refusal to listen.  I.e. our message for potential believers is one of love and hope, not a threat of “repent or else”.

When Paul preached in Athens he taught, “That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him”, not “That they should seek the Lord, else they will be tormented forever in hell”.  Now he did also teach that God “commandeth all men every where to repent:Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness”.  A clear statement of very important truth but, I believe, in a non-threatening manner.  The Holy Spirit can bring conviction and godly fear so hearers may indeed tremble at the word of God (as with Felix: as Paul “reasoned of righteousness, temperance, and judgment to come, Felix trembled”.  But notice that Paul reasoned, he didn’t deliberately try to induce fear even though fear may indeed be appropriate. But here it was a consequence of the Holy Spirit’s conviction).

The example you give of John preaching fiery judgement seems to be directed at the hypocrisy of unrepentant self righteous “vipers”, for whom a severe message of judgement is meet as presented in my post: since the lake of fire is not the end for all sinners, but only for the unrepentant ones. I suggest that Romans 1 and 2 are an exposition of the truth, not a blueprint for preaching to the unreached.

I do agree absolutely with the necessity of preaching repentance and my post was not intended to suggest otherwise.  But my point is that preaching repentance does not require the preacher to use the inducement of fear.  Future judgement is part of the truth to be preached, but the consequences of that judgement for the unrepentant is not the basis of the gospel message when preached to offer salvation; rather I suggest that it should be future (and present) hope.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Jonah.

[Robert Wurtz IIModerator]

Hi Mike,

Let me first say that whenever we preach, whether it’s in the church or on the street corner, we should be both guided and empowered by the Holy Spirit. In my experience, there are very few ministers these days who preach a biblical message of repentance and final judgment that comes anywhere near the teaching of the New Testament.

When I came to the Lord (for real) it was not as a consequence of hearing a preacher, but by sitting down and reading the New Testament. That experience jarred me to the core of my being and I can say with 100% conviction that no preacher I have ever heard bar none has had the impact on me in terms of inducing the fear of God and the dread of judgment like simply reading the text.

The challenge we have today is that God’s word is being watered down to the point that it is ineffectual. I feel the pressure to do this myself–especially when I’m in settings where love, love, love is the message. I would say without hesitation, that the Jesus I hear preached today does not square with the Jesus I read about from Matthew to Revelation. I don’t see gentle Jesus, meek and mild. I see a ruling King who is going to establish His kingdom and lay waste to His enemies in ways we can’t comprehend. He treads the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God Almighty.

If I were to list just ten verses on this thread that I have never heard preached on — I would probably get a NIB (not invited back) to most circles I move in. We live in the age of “itching ears” when men and women heap to themselves teachers wo tickle the ears. Moreover, I’m highly confident that most of the preachers of bygone generations could not relate to the Jesus we project to people. We life in the “healing of the wound of the daughter of my people slightly… saying peace, peace, when there is no peace.”

This has to be one of the wickedest generations in the history of the world and the message has gone so soft that most sinners can go on in sin and never feel an ounce of fear or conviction. That is a disgrace and an embarrassment as Leonard Ravenhill would say.. and he didn’t live to see hardly any of the madness such as same-sex marriage and legalized marijuana, etc. that is normalized in 2019. Just a few blunt thoughts.

[Robert Wurtz IIModerator]

Here are just a few thoughts as a primer for consideration. When speaking to the Jews, John the Baptist asked the people, “Who has warned you to flee from the wrath that is to come?” He clearly did not mean the destruction of the Temple because most of those people would not live to see it… as it was yet forty years away. Secondly, who could possibly claim to love somebody and not warn them of their greatest danger? The Gospel is a message of hope and judgment. The Lord comes to us with an olive branch in one hand and a sword in the other and says in effect, “Choose ye.”

Warning people about judgment is not intended to scare them… any more than telling a person if they don’t stop smoking they will (emphasis on will and not maybe) die of lung cancer or COPD. It is a plain fact that needs to be said. But most people don’t have the heart to say it. They are fearful. The same is true about teaching and preaching hell. Repentance and potential judgment is the message that angers people the very most because it upsets their personal peace. At Mar’s Hill Paul took his life into his won hands declaring what he did. We know historically that people were killed there when they said the wrong thing.

It wasn’t just the Scribes and Pharisees who cried “crucify Him… crucify Him!” It was common people. Jesus pronounced a stricter judgment on the religious leaders because of their position as leaders; but this must not distract from the fact that the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all unrighteousness. This is how Paul articulated (preached) his Gospel in Romans 1 & 2. He said to them, “I am now ready to preach the Gospel to you…” This was essentially what John Baptist and Jesus did.

What did Jesus mean when He detailed that someday He would say to folks, “Depart from me ye that work iniquity.”? Why would He say that and use that phraseology? “The boastful shall not stand in Your sight; You hate all workers of iniquity” (Psalms 5:5 NKJV). that verse is sure to warrant an NIB (not invited back). The severity of rejecting Christ cannot be overstated. The type of message you would hear in the first century from preachers? “Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.”It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:28–31 NKJV)

What could be imagined worse than dying without mercy? Whatever it is, that’s what those who reject Christ are going to endure.

Moreover, Jesus doesn’t only reference the judgment of hell, he describes it in great detail. We would know almost nothing about hell if it wasn’t for the teaching of Jesus. He says it is a place of eternal torment (Luke 16:23), of unquenchable fire (Mark 9:43), where the worm does not die (Mark 9:48), where people will gnash their teeth in anguish and regret (Matt. 13:42), and from which there is no return, even to warn loved ones (Luke 16:19–31). Keep in mind that the tormented rich man had yet to experience what the scripture calls, “and death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.” He calls hell a place of “outer darkness” (Matt. 25:30), comparing it to “Gehenna” (Matt. 10:28), which was a trash dump outside the walls of Jerusalem where rubbish was burned and maggots abounded. It was originally called “Tophet” from a Hebrew word that means “drum.” People beat drums there as they passed their children through the fire to Molech.

Sorry this is so long…

[JonahParticipant]

I don’t disagree with the truths you express Robert but I do think there is a time and a place for both the goodness and severity of God to be preached.  I think the latter is mainly for those who have rejected, or are in danger of rejecting, the goodness of the gospel and I think you will find that your examples generally apply to this latter scenario. I agree that a “love, love, love: love is all you need” approach lulls people into a very dangerous false sense of security because it licenses the continuation of sin.  But my point is that sinners are more likely to be put off by threats – we cannot manufacture conviction of sin which is the work of the Spirit, on the basis of truth which can only be preached with the wisdom of the Spirit.

There is no mention of hell fire in Paul’s well known summary of the key points of the gospel in 1 Cor 15:1-8, 22 that Paul actually preached (verse 1) – as opposed to his subsequent full exposition of all of its underlying truths to the churches – which you have mentioned in Romans. The message was one of resurrection hope.

And why wouldn’t it be, when the main thrust of my original post is that Jesus did not suffer hell fire in the place of saved sinners, since hell fire is only the end for those who reject His salvation? God did not prepare hell for fallen sinners, He died to save them from it. Not only would it be impossible (since by definition there is no return from its everlasting nature – unlike resurrection from physical and regeneration from spiritual death) for Jesus to come out of it to take up His place at God’s right hand; it would be pointless for Him to suffer something on behalf of unbelievers from which they have no hope of salvation anyway!  Damnation by definition is irredeemable.  It is the second death (Rev 20:14).  It is the first death which Christ suffered in our place, and in the process of His physical death He also experienced the agonising consequence of our sin of being forsaken by God – the essential feature of our spiritual death also from our first judgement for sin.

Robert I am conscious that you are rightly responding to common errors in how ‘the gospel’ is often preached. I can see how it is very easy to pick up on my thoughts and respond in this way (and important for anyone else to hear your response who might read my post in the way that I think you have).  However I feel that because you are so familiar with commonplace wrong emphases you have too readily read them into my posts, which I feel has stopped you from properly hearing what I have to say…

N.b. I didn’t notice an email alert to your last post by the way (perhaps I forgot to check a box).

• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Jonah.

[JonahParticipant]

Robert see these references for examples of Jesus’s preaching to the common man, as opposed to some of His teachings about hell that you mention (which do also have their place): Math 11:28; John 4:13, 14; 6:51; 7:37, 38; 11:25, 26.  The gospel is a message of hope for sinners and of judgement for unbelievers – see John 12:44-50.  As with Paul, judgement is included in the message but it only becomes the main emphasis for those who will not receive the gospel.

Balance can be a euphemism for compromise – but in this case I think balance is in order, because preaching hell fire can be just as much of the flesh as preaching “love, love, love”!  Ultimately as we both declare, preaching must be guided by and in the wisdom and power of the Holy Spirit.  I will probably leave the evangelism aspect of this post there.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 5 months ago by Jonah. Reason: Last paragraph added

[Robert Wurtz IIModerator]

Hi Mike,

I completely agree that we have to have balance, but in my experience, this balance does not exist. I can’t even remember the last time I heard someone preach on judgment of any kind. In fact, in circles I move in (that are considered quite conservative) it is very hard to even touch this topic without causing a frenzy. The only message that most seem to tolerate is love, grace, and the promises of God. If the Gospel was brought into balance (and I agree in this regard 100%) the churches would change overnight. 1. We would have a lower likelihood of filling churches with goats and tares 2. We could remedy much of the carnality that is driving the focus of many churches.

Having a look at Matthew 11:28 alone was enough to arrest my soul once again. And this is an example of how I read scripture and what brought me to Christ for real (as opposed to the many times I made professions of faith or came to an altar but was never changed). I’m hearing bith the message of warning and hope with the same force (as it were), but the warnings have my undivided attention. Consider this context:

Matthew 11:20: Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. 21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.[e] For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”

The Father Revealed in the Son

25 At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26 Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do.

27 “All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

28 “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”

V. 28 IMO deals with the contrast between the Pharisees “yoke” that they had placed on the people and the “yoke” that the Lord Jesus places on us. Not only did the Pharisees apply the law to people, but also the additional regulations (some call them “fences” around the law meant to keep people from breaking the original law).

In chapter 12 things get more serious yet as we have a warning against blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

[Robert Wurtz IIModerator]

Hi Mike,

This seems to be true on the surface, however, we have numerous warnings in Paul and in Hebrews that are addressed to the saints.

“Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.” (Romans 11:22 ESV)

Romans 11:22 grabs my attention and says, “don’t get careless because you can be lost in the same way that the unbelieving Jews are now lost.”

“For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light” (Ephesians 5:5–8 NKJV)

Notice in Ephesians 5:8 that Paul is addressing those who are light in the Lord… children of light.

I gave a stern warning from Hebrews in a previous post, but there are more.

“And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.” (Hebrews 12:27–29 KJV)

Just to reiterate (and I think this is in step with the atonement aspect of this thread) we have a stern warning regarding how we treat the blood of Christ. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” (Hebrews 10:28–31 NKJV)

I wonder if a preacher ever concluded his message by saying, “The Lord offers you grace because He sits on a throne of mercy today. He has commended His love to us by dying for us when we were yet sinners. But if you reject His offer, you have added to your life of sin the greatest of them all… you have trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace. For we know Him who said, Vengeance is Mine, I will repay, says the Lord. And again, The LORD will judge His people.” It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

At the end of the day, this will be the question. What did a person do with Christ throughout the course of their life? Did they die in faith? Did they draw back?

[Paul RossiterParticipant]

Thank you guys for this interesting discussion on the balanced modus operandi of preaching the gospel. I have taken many useful and helpful notes from the discussion.

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